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Post by tonydestefanis on Jul 1, 2012 13:23:55 GMT -5
Why is it that any attempt to wrest control of this country from the rich and powerful is criticized as socialism? It is well established in this country that certain services can be provided by the government for reasons of efficiency or otherwise and this does not make it socialism. Under the twisted thinking of many people the provision of any service by the government is socialism. At one time we did not have public prosecutors you had to pay a private one. Should we go back to this? How about police and fire service? Should they only be available to those who pay a subcribtion fee like the old time fire departments? No pay looks like your house should burn down. Is providing a free education socialism? Why would it be socialism to provide a college education, but to provide a high school one is not? What about the right to a public defender? Should we also have to hire someone privately to inspect our meat? What about the military? Should that also be privately funded? If you want protection you have to kick into the mercenery fund other than that your on your own? What about social security, medicare and medicaide? They same people that critizize socialism support these. What about the mortgage interest deduction? I love it but it is really a subsidy for the mortgage industry. Why is that special it is a government handout. The fear of socialism in a few areas is nothing but sczhizophrenic. It is like our bizarre system of tipping. Someone serves you food in a diner, they get a tip. At a restaurant or bar, they get a tip. Someone serves you a burger at McDonalds, no tip even though a counter person at a coffee shop who just hands you coffee gets a tip. Makes no sense. THis also ignores that fact that there is no reason whatsoever that we cannot pass laws that do these things. Just because we have a capitalist economic system does not mean we can't make these decisions. Doesn't mean we can't regulate. Hell I got to pay taxes on cigarettes because people want me to stop smoking so why not tax companies for their bad behavior. No we give them "incentives". So why isn't anyone paying me to stop smoking? Oh I don't have a lobbyist. We can also pass a tax on the windfalls of economic gains the top one percent have made in recent years to fund these things. Time for economic justice by any name. You have been bamboozled hoodwinked lied to and screwed over and it wasn't the socialist who did it. It was unregulated capitalism and deregulation.
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Post by frankleespeaking on Jul 20, 2012 13:05:46 GMT -5
Were you looking for an actual explanation? I've been meaning to write a piece called What's So Terrifying About Socialism for a long time.
There was a time in this country during the height of the cold war, where fears of socialism were somewhat well-founded, though even then there was some conflation between socialism and communism. As with many other things though, the right-wing echo chamber has drummed up mostly unfounded fears of the ills of socialism, and the people who listen to this sort of thing have closed their minds to hearing the other side.
The reality is that all first world countries, even ours, are a blend of socialism and capitalism, and there is nothing wrong or scary about either as long as both are subservient to democracy. Right now in this country, socialism and democracy seem subservient to capitalism. I've been studying this problem for years and trying to figure out how to address it. It is complex, to be sure, but the conversations we've been having here, and the conversations started through occupy and other groups have been moving us the right direction.
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Post by Cat Wilson on Jul 20, 2012 15:39:46 GMT -5
I am always saddened (though no longer stunned and almost numb to) when people throw around labels like "socialism" while having no clue what they mean. Also when they use "communism," "fascism," "Nazism," and "socialism" interchangeably. I suppose the solution would be better education with regards to the terms, paired with more (or any at all) focus on critical thinking.
Or, in my case, beating friends and relatives over the head one-by-one with the facts.
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Post by davidindc on Jul 21, 2012 8:16:13 GMT -5
I'm a Marxist-Lennonist.
Groucho and John.
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Post by Nathan Duncanson on Jul 21, 2012 23:19:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure what other people think, but over the past couple years, I've been thinking that the best economy would have a mix of socialist and capitalist economics. And also that the worst economy would probably have a mix. I'm just thinking that we've taken the worst of both and combined them into our current economy.
In reality, we have the best of both in some areas of our economy and the worst of both in other areas. Personally, I think we should go with socialist ideas for anything that comes from or has value because of society as a whole - such as special privileges (patents, copyrights, fractional reserve banking, etc...) as well as for anything that exists without human input - such as land and natural resources. Then stick to capitalist concepts for things that come from individual humans - such as each persons individual labor and the services they provide for themselves or other people.
Based upon that logic, we should not have an income tax. However, our taxes on land (not the buildings, just the land) should be set to equal the market rate ground rent on the land. Those who feel they need to pollute the environment to make a profit, should fully compensate the community for the harm caused by that pollution. Someone who chooses to improve their home should not have their property taxes raised simple because they added a couple rooms to their home with their own labor or paid for it with their own salary. In the first instance, the person or business is acting against the whole community. In the second instance, a person's individual choices with their home cause no harm to the community and the value added was not taken from the community.
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Post by frankleespeaking on Jul 22, 2012 23:30:05 GMT -5
"Socialism failed. Capitalism is failing. There has to be a third way." - a conversation between myself and Billy Bickett (founder, Tech Soup, Net Squared), San Francisco, May 2009.
You know how I know when things are true? When someone else tells me something I've said before with no way of knowing it.
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