mhuttman
Full Member
People First
Posts: 124
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Post by mhuttman on Jun 13, 2012 9:41:52 GMT -5
BTW who runs the 99Declaration.org Facebook page? That account replied to me Re: Paper Ballots
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 13, 2012 15:10:28 GMT -5
To the best of our knowledge at this time, Michael Pollok is the administrator of that page. Therefore he sent out the request for donations and wrote that reply to you. He also wrote the subsequent replies to me where he challenged me by asking if I was willing to hand count all 787 ballots on "100 grievances" - to which I said yes, I absolutely would if it saves us some money that can be put toward our post-Congress activities.
We also believe he was the only person with the passwords to the website that could have removed the original forum. What we don't know is why he did that. But it doesn't matter, because we now have our own forum here that he has NO ability to remove or edit in any way - and never will.
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 13, 2012 15:23:59 GMT -5
I don't see how paper ballots can reasonably be used if you have say 300 people there and there are over 100 potential grievances. How do you plan on narrowing the number of grievances? Do you decide on the number of grievances before hand? How do you decide which grievances are included in the petition? Not trying to be arguementative but trying to understand what you are proposing. There aren't 100 grievances listed anywhere right now that I'm aware of. There are only 13 topics in our grievance section right now - 2 of which are not actual grievances but comments from the person who started the topics. One does contain a suggested "top ten", however, so if you assume that 10 PLUS the other 11 listed in that section, we only have 21 listed here on the forum. There are 20 in the most recent iteration of the suggested Declaration on the main website (under "A New Declaration"). I don't recall how many were on the original forum, but I don't think it approached 100 there either. I keep hearing this number (100 grievances) being tossed around, but right now, we don't have 100, and we can't list 100 in the Declaration even if we had that many to start. We've got approximately 20-25 good grievance topics, with specifics of each topic listed below them. Some of them can be eliminated, such as the one on the website about giving Puerto Rico statehood. I support this completely - but it's not as urgent as the others, and if we are successful with getting the influence of money out of our politics and legislation, it will be far easier to get PR's statehood approved down the road. There are a few others that can either be melded into a single topic or are not urgent enough to be in the current Declaration. So I don't see us even coming up with 100 grievances, and while I hope we have a very high turnout, unless we can allow some delegates to attend in some sort of electronic capacity, we won't be counting 787 ballots on each grievance either. So, until there actually ARE 100 grievances to sort out, can we stop bandying that number about when it is not even close to what we actually have on the grievance list?
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mhuttman
Full Member
People First
Posts: 124
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Post by mhuttman on Jun 13, 2012 15:34:50 GMT -5
And its not like only one person can do the counting. With paper ballots a team of 3 or 4 people can divide the stack of ballots and knock them out quickly. All it would take is some Excel spreadsheets that get merged when everyone is done counting.
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 13, 2012 15:50:45 GMT -5
Actually, we could have 4 people total (if that many are needed) - 3 to count the ballots and one to enter the information in an Excel spreadsheet (I can do that too - 18 months of business school including advanced Excel training).
And if we have a computer connected to a projection screen, as well as a microphone, all the delegates can hear each counter deliver their total and see that total entered in the spreadsheet in real time, so there is no question that the count is entered accurately.
I can set up the sheet to provide a running total and percentages ahead of time so that each entry of the count automatically updates the spreadsheet (and I can do all that for free - not for $4600).
At most we'd need to buy a megaphone or battery operated microphone, and rent the equipment to connect the computer holding the Excel spreadsheet to a video screen so the delegates can watch the totals being calculated.
Potential cost for rental and sound equipment (I recommend the megaphone because we can also use it for the rally on the 4th) is probably less than $500 - leaving us $4100 plus whatever may come in from the latest request for donations for printing, distributing and promoting our Declaration after the ratification.
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Post by davidindc on Jun 13, 2012 16:50:20 GMT -5
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 13, 2012 17:27:31 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how anyone got 100 grievances out of that - there are only 20 "suggested" grievances listed on the document. Most of what is written under each suggested grievance is just a statement of why it's a problem and suggestions for how to fix it.
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Post by davidindc on Jun 13, 2012 20:17:47 GMT -5
This is where the 100 grievances silliness comes from
IV. Suggested Content of the Petition for a Redress of Grievances.
Each state delegation to CONTINENTAL CONGRESS 2.0, prior to June 15, 2012, shall submit to the 99% Working Group, a list of their state's five most signficant grievances against the federal government. The grievances from each state will then be compiled into a master list of suggested grievances to be voted upon by the Delegates during the three day convention in July. The final PETITION FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES may or may not include the following points:
Corporations Are Not People Corporations, unions, political organizations and all entities created by operation of law are not human beings and any law, rule, regulation or court ruling so holding must be overruled, repealed or overturned even if it requires a Constitutional amendment.
Money Is Property Not Speech
Money is not speech it is property and any law, rule, regulation or court ruling so holding must be overruled, repealed or overturned even if it requires a Constitutional amendment.
Campaign Finance Reform New legislation to enact a 100% public campaign finance system requiring an immediate ban on all direct and indirect private contributions of money, or anything of value, from all sources including individuals, to all politicians or political parties to be replaced by a "blind" public trust whereby taxpayers will fund all federal election campaigns. Private donors may also contribute to the blind trust for a tax deduction but those private contributions may not be earmarked for a specific candidate or political party.
Adopting Professor Lawrence Lessig's $50 voucher system with $100 private contribution limits in federal political campaigns.
New legislation to impose a $2500 aggregate campaign contributions limit per human being per election cycle. Legal entities such as corporations, PACS, Super-PACS and unions to be barred from making any direct or indirect contributions to politicians.
A total ban on corporate and union political expenditures to or in favor of political candidates or political parties.
Retaining the current campaign finance system but enacting new laws making all direct and indirect political contributions to politicians and political parties completely transparent and published online and elsewhere. Specifically, there must be total transparency for any person, corporation, union or other entity including PACS, Super-PACS or not-for-profit organizations that make political contributions or buy advertising time to advocate for any politician, political party or political view because money is property and not speech.
New laws banning all private expenditures on advertisements endorsing a particular candidate or political party or attacking a candidate or political party
New laws banning foreign money and the use of cash in all federal political campaigns.
Public broadcasting licenses granted by the FCC and other regulators must mandate calendar specific dates and specific time slots which are available to candidates for elected federal office at a 90% discounted market rate for the purpose of campaigning whether funded by taxpayers or by private sources.
Healthcare
Repeal of prior healthcare laws and immediate enactment of "Medicare for all" or a new single-payer healthcare system.
New laws permitting the federal government to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies to set prices for medications.
Reintroduction of compulsory exercise programs in all public schools to combat the epidemic of obesity.
Employment
Passage of a comprehensive jobs and job-training act like the "American Jobs Act" to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with free relocation services, specialized re-training through partnerships between companies seeking employees and community colleges and other educational institutions.
Immediate passage of a law, similar to the “Lilly Ledbetter” bill, requiring equal pay for women with stiff financial penalties imposed on employers for violating the law.
Re-institution of the Works Progress Administration, Civilian Conservation Corps and similar emergency governmental agencies tasked with creating new projects to provide jobs for the families of the 151 million People living in poverty and low income homes.
Tax incentives granted to companies who partner with educational institutions to re-train workers to work in green energy and new sources of American manufacturing to reduce reliance on imported goods, services and natural resources.
Tax incentives should also be offered to U.S. companies that invest in reconstructing the manufacturing capacity of the United States and hiring our citizens to produce and innovate.
Tax incentives to entice businesses to hire our citizens rather than outsource jobs and a new “outsourcing tax” should be introduced to discourage businesses from sending jobs overseas and companies that continue to outsource will be barred from earning income in U.S. markets.
Protection Of The Environment
The rights to clean air, water, safe food, and conservation of the planet for future generations shall no longer be infringed by greed-driven corporations and selfish individuals who care for nothing except money and instant gratification.
A new federal charter to establish a "Green Bank" to fund "Demand Driven Clean Energy" including electric and low emission vehicles, solar, wind, fusion, hydroelectric, geothermal.
Tax incentives to rapidly transition away from poisonous fossil fuels and nuclear energy {those government subsidies should be eliminated immediately} to safe, non-toxic, reusable or carbon neutral sources of energy such as wind, solar, geothermal and hydroelectric.
New comprehensive treaties, laws and regulations must be immediately enacted to give the Environmental Protection Agency, and other environmental protection regulators around the world, expanded cross-border powers and resources to shut down corporations, businesses or entities that intentionally or recklessly damage the environment.
New federal laws enforcing mandatory recycling programs now in effect in some US cities and many countries must be uniformly adopted in the US in addition to controlling the unchecked dumping of waste into our oceans, air and ground by imposing meaningful fines on violators.
A new treaty to reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere from its current level of 392 parts per million to below 350 parts per million.
No “corporate veil” protection for any employee, officer or director of a corporation that is directly or indirectly engaged in the intentional or reckless decimation of the planet for profit.
Tax Reform
A Progressive tax on gross income, from a minimum tax rate of X% to a maximum tax rate of 3X%.
A federal consumption tax of 10% on each dollar except for purchases of food, medicine, housing and clothing.
Any corporation or entity that does business in the United States and generates income from that business in the United States shall be fully taxed on that income by removing deductions, subsidies and loopholes regardless of corporate domicile or they will be barred from earning their profits in the United States.
The $4 billion per year “hedge fund loophole” which permits certain individuals engaged in financial transactions to evade graduated income tax rates by treating their income as capital gains shall be immediately abolished.
Elimination of all tax deductions except: (1) interest paid on mortgages for one's primary residence; (2) Contributions to charitable institutions, up to a total of one-tenth of annual gross income; (3) Interest earned on bonds issued by the governments of any state, municipality or other sub-division of the federal and U.S. domestic government.
No household with an income at or below the poverty line (responsibility for making this calculation having been shifted to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services) shall be subject to federal income tax action.
Criminal Justice Reform
Abolish the death penalty in all states or lose federal funding for law enforcement.
Curtailing the “Private Prison Industrial Complex” by removing all incentives in the legal system set-up to imprison non-violent drug offenders and the mentally ill rather than treat or provide alternatives to incarceration. Non-violent drug offenders who do not engage in drug sales, and those with mental health issues must be treated rather than imprisoned and adjudicated through specialized drug and mental health courts.
The federal government and all states must provide a free attorney to every criminal defendants at all stages of every criminal case beginning at arrest and arraignment or lose all federal funding for law enforcement.
Legalization of marihuana for recreational and medicinal use in all US Jurisdictions or loss of federal funding for law enforcement to states and municipalities.
Require that all prisoners be granted a DNA test at taxpayer expense in their cases if a genetic sample is available in the particular case.
The United States should sign the treaty submitting to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, which tries individuals for committing war crimes.
All laws prohibiting convicted felons from voting must be repealed unless the felon was convicted of election or voter fraud.
Election Reform & Ending Voter Disenfranchisement
Abolishing the Electoral College In favor of the popular vote In presidential elections.
Election day shall becomes a federal holiday requiring employees to provide sufficient time for employees to vote on that day.
Compulsory voting with fines imposed on voters for failing to vote.
New election laws and rules, and amendment of the constitution if necessary, to provide for a gender balance in Congress so that 50% of the seats are reserved for people who identify as women and 50% reserved for people who identify as men.
Uniform rules for the mandatory use of verifiable, tamper-proof voting machines in all states supervised by the Federal Elections Commission rather than local political parties.
New election laws banning all rules in all states that hinder the right to vote whether it is called a test or requiring the presentation of identification; the federal government shall issue free photo identification cards to all voters.
New election laws banning all rules in all states that prevent equal access to the ballot by giving advantages to certain political parties or penalizing independent candidates for office.
New federal laws passed authorizing the FEC to impose uniform rules in all states and districts setting forth the criteria for excluding a person from voting and the use of the same verifiable voting systems in all voting precincts; all elections are to be run by employees of the Federal Election Commission only; municipalities will no longer run elections when federal candidates are running for office; the federal government shall pay for this uniform, secure, cost-effective and verifiable voting system.
The practice of "gerrymandering" shall be ended and replaced with a non-partisan commission to redraw all voting district lines using a neutral, objective mathematical formula or algorithm that does not take into consideration the wealth, party affiliation, race, religion or other demographics of voters.
New federal laws requiring that no political party shall be privileged or receive special advantage in any state for their candidates running for Congress or the Presidency.
New election laws to ban all publically reported polling two weeks before election day and completely ending the practice of so-called "exit polling" and early return reporting by the media which contaminates the democratic process.
Open primaries in all states for all parties in all races for federal office so that all voters may vote in any primary.
Reinstatement of the "equal time" rules so that each candidate for office is given equal free air time on television, radio, cable, or any other medium licensed and regulated by the federal government.
Fiscal Responsibility
Passage of a law to reduce the $15 trillion national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020 by re-implementing the Clinton era income tax rates, increasing the capital gains tax rate, ending the hedge fund loophole, no oil and gas subsidies, and mandatory cuts in defense and entitlement spending except for social security which is self-sustaining.
Congress must pass immediate legislation (see e.g. H.R. 639) to encourage China (which undervalues its currency by up to 40%) to end currency manipulation and take additional steps to reduce our massive trade deficit.
Passage of a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution.
The immediate formation of a non-partisan commission to audit and investigate the short-term and long-term economic risks and benefits in eliminating the Federal Reserve Bank and transferring all its functions to the United States Treasury Department
Passage of the line item veto amendment to the Constitution.
The United States government shall begin to measure economic growth by the GPI (Genuine Progress Indicator) rather than GDP (Gross Domestic Product)
To reduce the principal on all outstanding student loans, a financial transaction surcharge, similar to those fees charged by banks on consumers, will be introduced to banks and securities firms.
Government Ethics Reform & Closing “The Revolving Door”
After leaving government service, no federal elected or unelected official shall receive anything of value, for a period of five years, or work in any capacity to influence the actions of the federal government, with the sole exception of exercising their own personal First Amendment right to speak and publish.
All federal employees, politicians and officials are entitled to their salary, benefits, pension and nothing else. Any gift or thing of value given or promised to a politician or federal employee or immediate family valued at more than $5 will be deemed a bribe and punished under the criminal laws.
The revolving door between the federal government and the private lobbying sector must be closed and no federal employee, official or politicians may ever work as a lobbyist upon leaving office.
Amend the constitution to establish an elected "General Public Assembly" as a fourth branch of government to oversee the two houses of Congress in all matters particularly ethics.
Immediate passage of laws stating that the trading of inside information shall be a crime for all elected and unelected officials and government employees just as it is a crime for all other Americans. No politician or government employee is above the law.
New laws to require mandatory minimum prison sentences for anyone convicted, upon plea or after trial, of public corruption or bribery involving any public official or employee.
New laws enacted to end the so-called “filibuster rule” in the Senate, which requires a supermajority of votes to pass virtually any legislation.
No elected or unelected official or their immediate family members may hold stocks of any public company while in office or five years after leaving office unless said stocks are held in a blind investment trust.
No member of the military shall own or hold any stock or share in any corporation or other entity that the official specifically regulates while in service and shall last five years after the term of military service ends.
Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia
A Congress sanctioned and binding process aimed to fully decolonize Puerto Rico using internationally recognized non-territorial, non-colonial status formulas resulting in statehood, independence or free association.
Declaratory relief from the US Supreme Court for citizens residing in Puerto Rico and the four US territories to revise and repeal of the so-called "insular cases".
Full voting representation in Congress for the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico.
Tax reforms to treat the citizens of Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia as if they were citizens of any other state.
Veterans Benefits
All Veterans and their dependents must have access to the consolidated military health care system just as active duty dependents have access.
Funding must be increased to assist veterans returning to civilian life to pursue their education goals and become gainfully employed.
Protecting Consumers From Predatory Practices on Wall Street and Main Street
An immediate freeze on all primary residential home foreclosures (not second homes) and new direct loan mortgages or refinancing to all homeowners by the federal government at the discount window rate (about 0-.25%) less processing fees incurred by the federal government; all lending institutions shall barred from the mortgage writing business in favor of these direct federal loans.
Creation and proper funding of a non-partisan task force specifically designed to regulate mortgage-backed securities and speculative financial instruments.
Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act; implementation of the regulations required under the Dodd-Franks Act; vigorous enforcement of the “Volcker Rule” and enforcement of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in all industries to enhance competition and free speech.
Increased funding for the SEC, FINRA, CFTC, CFPB, and to the Justice Department and State Attorneys General to investigate potential criminal practices of the Securities and Banking industries especially in the areas of mortgage backed securities, hedge funds and speculation
Student Loan Debt Relief & Grants
Because education is the only way to secure our future success as a nation, interest on student debts must be immediately reduced to 2% or less (plus the discount window rate currently 0.0 to 0.25%) and repayments deferred for periods of unemployment or illness or disability. Employers will receive a student loan repayment tax deduction for paying off the student loans of their employees.
Outright federal grants provided to those students who pursue and obtain degrees in the sciences, green energy, environmental sustainability, mathematics, technology and engineering.
Public and private universities and colleges that do not reduce tuition to affordable levels so that middle class-families can again afford to send their children to obtain a higher education shall lose all federal funding including grants and loans.
Ending The Communications Monopolies
Broadcast and cable television, radio and print communications are controlled by too few corporations and individuals so new laws and regulations must be passed immediately to fund, authorize and mandate the Anti-Trust Division of the U.S. Justice Department to break-up the 6-10 massive media conglomerates that control virtually all media content which is an existential threat to free thought and speech in the United States.
Immigration Reform
The immediate passage of “The Dream Act” by Congress.
New legislation to secure our borders while streamlining the path to US citizenship especially for those qualified to work in high demand industries or skills required in the United States.
Non-citizens who obtain their education in the United States in highly demand fields should be provided an accelerated path to citizenship so the investments made in these students remain in the United States.
Protection Of Civil & Human Rights
New treaties, laws and regulations must be passed to ensure that the Internet will remain free for all people in the world to use and express themselves without government or corporate interference.
The immediate ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment.
Repeal those portions of the Patriot Act that limit civil rights and repeal of those sections of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act that permit indefinite detention of US Citizens.
The so-called Defense Of Marriage Act must be repealed for the reasons recently stated by the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit.
Ending Perpetual War For Profit
Immediately recalling all combat troops from Afghanistan.
Reinstitution of the draft or mandatory public service for males and females without any deferments or exceptions so that the wealthy and privileged who profit from war will be required to send their children to die with the children of the poor and middle class.
New laws to counter the Military Industrial Complex’s mission of perpetual war for profit, particularly in the Middle East, which dramatically benefits the Oil and Gas Industrial Complex due to fluctuations and speculation in the price of oil caused by incessant and unwarranted military intervention.
A new treaty with Russia, China, India, North Korea, Pakistan, Israel and the other countries with nuclear weapons or plans to make nuclear weapons, to reduce the number of nuclear weapons so complete nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation may be achieved by 2020 or sooner.Arrest and extradition to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, any person indicted or charged with war crimes, on upon probable cause, for intentionally and knowingly engaging in warfare based upon a false premise or pretext.
New laws to reinvigorate the War Powers Resolution to limit the deployment of military forces to only those instances where Congressional approval has been granted by at least a simple majority in both houses.
Term Limits
No new term limits should be imposed but new laws enacted so that Senators will not serve consecutive (six-year) terms and Representatives shall not serve more than two (two-year) terms consecutively.
Term limits: 4 years for house; 6 years for senate
Term limits: 8 years for house; 12 years for senate
Term limits: 12 years for house; 18 years for senate
Term limits: 16 years for house; 24 years for senate
Term limits: 10 years for the Supreme Court of the United States
Term limits: 20 years for the Supreme Court of the United States
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 13, 2012 21:26:19 GMT -5
Yep, that's what I was reading - but I only counted the categories, which is how I got 20.
I didn't consider every item under each category to be a separate grievance - especially since most of them are suggested solutions to the grievance. The whole write up on term limits alone is a suggested solution. So is the request for passage of Lessig's voucher system and restoration of campaign donation limits.
Those things are how the grievance is to be redressed - not the grievance itself.
Just for example, in case anyone isn't sure of the difference:
Grievance: DOMA is an abhorrent enshrinement of hate and discrimination in our federal law.
Reason: We, the people of America, who love this country in large part because it stands for equal rights, find this failure to protect the rights of same-sex couples who wish to marry or who already are married, to be an abhorrent statute that was not only a violation of the civil rights of gay couples, but also a serious breach of the separation between church and state.
Proposed Solution: This law was motivated by religious prejudice and personal biases, and must be repealed immediately.
So, the grievance is the statement of what is currently wrong (ie: what we're upset/angry about). Then there's a justification for that grievance (why it's wrong), and THEN there's the suggestion for how to fix it.
In the document MP prepared, grievances, reasons and suggested solutions are all jumbled together and all being counted as grievances - which is why the count is so much higher than it needs to be.
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john
New Member
Texas-12
Posts: 39
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Post by john on Jun 15, 2012 23:12:42 GMT -5
"I know that there was talk of buying a keypad system for people to vote with, but I can't see any value in that compared to just using paper or hands."
If anyone else has attended some sort of conference, they will know how inordinately long it takes hand shows or the counting of paper ballots
What we may have to do might be hard to fit into two day's work even if we allow quick machine voting.
I could be mistaken. But why put the process in jeopardy?
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Post by maureenmower on Jun 16, 2012 0:48:41 GMT -5
John, we aren't going to be voting on the 100 grievances on that list. That was supposed to be a "suggested list" that was created solely by M Pollok. It does not contain ANY of the delegate-negotiated grievances on this forum. For example, at the beginning of that list, there is this set of "instructions": "Each state delegation to CONTINENTAL CONGRESS 2.0, prior to June 15, 2012, shall submit to the 99% Working Group, a list of their state's five most signficant grievances against the federal government. The grievances from each state will then be compiled into a master list of suggested grievances to be voted upon by the Delegates during the three day convention in July. The final PETITION FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES may or may not include the following points:" Now, first of all, I have yet to hear of a single state where all the delegates got together and decided on their "top 5" grievances. Secondly, even if every state delegation did that - the list that was sent to the keypad voting machine company contains ALL of the "suggested" grievances that the paragraph above it says "may or may not" be in it. Apparently MP decided his grievance list was the only one worth sending. Next, even if we did use MP's list, as I pointed out in an earlier post, more than half of what is on that list is NOT a "grievance" but a proposed solution to a grievance. Those are two DIFFERENT things. The actual number of grievances on that list is between 20 and maybe 40 (I'd have to parse them out from the proposed solutions). So, whether we were to use that list (which is highly unlikely) or the grievance list we are formulating here, or a combination of the two, along with any potential grievances suggested by delegates who show up in Philly but never participated here or even on the old forum - it's still likely that we won't be voting on more than 20-40 grievances. At most, we will have 786 delegates, as Dawn has already said she can't attend. A committee of 3 vote counters and one tally keeper could zip through paper ballots in less than 15 minutes. And there are other ways to vote that might be even faster... For instance, we could purchase poker chips, or raffle ticket rolls, in different colors, like blue for yes and red for no. Each delegate would get enough of each color to vote either way on every ballot. Then all the counters have to do is sort and stack the chips or tickets in packs of 10 or 20 (whatever will stand without tipping) and it will be extremely easy to count them all. There are ways to get the job done - and we are going to have to use those ways, because the keypads will be programmed for grievances we aren't using or voting on. It's a shame that the SC insisted on wasting that money, but there's nothing we can do about that. We must move on and continue planning OUR Congress - because that is what it is. MP got it started, and we thank him for that - but it's OUR responsibility now, not to him, but to the people of our states and all the people of this country.
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mhuttman
Full Member
People First
Posts: 124
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Post by mhuttman on Jun 18, 2012 10:44:57 GMT -5
"I know that there was talk of buying a keypad system for people to vote with, but I can't see any value in that compared to just using paper or hands." If anyone else has attended some sort of conference, they will know how inordinately long it takes hand shows or the counting of paper ballots What we may have to do might be hard to fit into two day's work even if we allow quick machine voting. I could be mistaken. But why put the process in jeopardy? You raise a valid point, but I'm not sure how much time we will actually save with an electronic system vs. an efficient manual system. We're going to be strapped for time no matter what, since I assume that at least a few grievances will be put up for rigorous debate. I just think that this voting system may be more expensive than the value that it will add to this convention.
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mhuttman
Full Member
People First
Posts: 124
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Post by mhuttman on Jun 18, 2012 10:52:20 GMT -5
A little re-wording can turn most of those items into grievances, so I don't consider that a major issue.
I love the poker chip idea, BTW. I think some dollar stores have cheap poker chip sets of 100. If we buy 15 sets (so 750 or each chip color) we're still getting out for way cheaper than with the electronic solution. You could do the same thing with Poker cards or even Magic cards (Plains vs. Swamps... Plains = Yes Swamps = No. Counting cards can be done very quickly with a trick that I learned from selling cards to dealers.)
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Post by davidindc on Jun 18, 2012 13:42:28 GMT -5
The same people (person) who bought us a botched election also bought the voting system.
I predict it will work no better.
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Post by kjlowry on Jun 18, 2012 18:42:05 GMT -5
This is about the voting for the grievances in general more than keypads vs. ballots. Richard Fobes just commented on A New Declaration: OMG! I just saw that the official agenda specifies, for use at the Philadelphia conference, a vote-counting method that is so unfair that it doesn't have a name. Here is the wording from the agenda: * "Each grievance will be shown for 30 seconds and in that time you may enter any number up to “X” or you may enter nothing. For example, you may use all of your “X” points on one grievance or you may distribute your “X” points over several grievances. This weighted point system allows you to emphasis those grievances that are most important to you. As each grievance is shown for 30 seconds, you may enter a number from zero to “X” but once you use up your “X” points, you will not be able to assign additional points." Obviously the organizers did not talk to any election-method experts. Why? This unnamed voting method is similar to the "Borda count" method, but without the requirement that each choice be ranked with a different number of "points." Even the "Borda count" method is widely recognized (by election-method experts) to be unfair, but without requiring separate ranking levels, the results are likely to produce disastrous results. To see an example of what's wrong with this method, suppose someone with a single-minded focus on a conspiracy theory investigation or ?? and a few other delegates are disgruntled because each of their favored grievances is not being included. If they cast all their votes for the same oddball grievance and the other delegates vote sincerely, that oddball grievance can end up being approved. Of course that's an extreme example. A more likely outcome will be that the "winning" grievances do not seem to match what everyone seems to be in agreement about. A far better approach for this kind of voting is "approval" voting, which means that each delegate either approves or disapproves each choice. Then the choices with the most votes are chosen. Besides giving fairer results, approval voting eliminates the need to keep track of how many votes a delegate has already used. Also it prevents the bias toward the grievances that are shown earlier (while the delegate who has not already planned out their voting strategy thinks they still have lots of votes left), which is yet another unfairness about the chosen unnamed vote-counting method. To see that this recommendation matches what other election-method experts agree on, take a look at the methods recommended in the "Declaration of Election-Method Reform Advocates" -- at www.BanSingleMarkBallots.org -- and note that the Declaration supports "approval" voting but does not even mention the "Borda count" method, let alone the unnamed method now specified in the conference agenda. (Clarification: I was a major contributor to the writing of that document.) In the agenda I also saw that the number of grievances ("X") must be chosen before the actual grievances are chosen. Instead, at least one round of voting for grievances should be done before the delegates can make this decision wisely. In conjunction with the unfair voting method, the outcome could be a few badly-chosen grievances instead of a few well-chosen ones. If the voting methods remain unchanged, the outcome of this conference is going to be very disappointing! Richard Fobes (aka "VoteFair" on Wikipedia) I felt like it was important to share this post here because we have an example of the problem that was described above going on now in the discussions on the "New Declaration" page on the 99% declaration website. I can see how it could throw the voting completely off-track. KJ Lowry TX-12
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