|
Post by davidindc on Jun 11, 2012 13:54:25 GMT -5
I do not beieve this belongs in our list of greivances. But an awful lot of people commenting on the grievances as listed on the 99%D site keep raising it, and raising it, and raising it.
My hope is that, to the extent a delegate wants to address this, they'll do it in this thread.
I'll be hard to convince, as, I suspect, will most delegates. But that doesn't mean that a delegate or delegates who believe this to be crucial ought not have a place to try to convince skeptics, civilly.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Gentilucci on Jun 11, 2012 14:21:53 GMT -5
Maureen and I responded to one 9/11 Truther with basically the same message on the previous forum. The response goes something like this:
Anyone who believes 9/11 was an inside job and/or is calling for more investigation should understand better than anyone that we live in a world where perception is reality. So, even if it was a conspiracy and a government cover-up, the vast majority of Americans do not think this is the case, and will not be convinced that this is anything other than a fringe movement of conspiracy theorists.
So, whether these assertions turn out to be true at the end of the day or not, if we are to include them here, we will automatically be dismissed by the great majority of the general population. Instead we need to focus on what many of us feel is the central issue that we can all agree on...the corrosive influence of special interest money on our democracy.
|
|
Christopher A Brown
Guest
|
Post by Christopher A Brown on Jun 15, 2012 14:36:38 GMT -5
Maureen and I responded to one 9/11 Truther with basically the same message on the previous forum. I agree with your post Mike. However this is an aspect that needs to be dealt with in order to allow defense of the constitution, and not just relating to 9-11. This is another aspect relating to perceptions as you accurately point out below. Cognitive distortions. Americans have been conditioned to use them and they are not compatible with critical thinking. The list was created by cognitive therapists and was designed to help patients understand how they were misleading themselves. The same basic misleading can be effected in discussion by a group invoking social fears with the false uses of agreements based in cognitive distortions. COGNITIVE DISTORTIONS 1. All or nothing thinking: Things are placed in black or white categories. If things are less than perfect self is viewed as failure. 2. Over generalization: Single event is viewed as continuous failure. 3. Mental filter: Details in life (positive or negative) are amplified in importance while opposite is rejected. 4. Minimizing: Perceiving one or opposite experiences (positive or negative) as absolute and maintaining singularity of belief to one or the other. 5. Mind reading: One absolutely concludes that others are reacting positively or negatively without investigating reality. 6. Fortune Telling: Based on previous 5 distortions, anticipation of negative or positive outcome of situations is established 7. Catastrophizing: Exaggerated importance of self's failures and others successes. 8. Emotional reasoning: One feels as though emotional state IS reality of situation. 9. "Should" statements: Self imposed rules about behavior creating guilt at self inability to adhere and anger at others in their inability to conform to self's rules. 10. Labeling: Instead of understanding errors over generalization is applied. 11. Personalization: Thinking that the actions or statements of others are a reaction to you. 12. Entitlement: Believing that you deserve things you have not earned. The phrase "9/11 Truther" is labeling, or #10 above. It was designed to enable rejection and denial of facts for those that prefer social comfort to dealing with difficult social issues. It was designed by an infiltration that also is conducting a program creating all of the issues the 99% are seeking to resolve. I can such a complete set of facts, compared to any set that anyone else can produce, to completely justify an open mind when confronting the word "infiltration". Anyone who believes 9/11 was an inside job Respective of the accuracy of your post, another label is present "inside job". Instead we need to focus on what many of us feel is the central issue that we can all agree on The central issue is that the US government is unconstitutional and I think that most can agree. How that happened, why, what has resulted from it, is another issue for discussion and 9-11 fits in there. That discussion does not need to be a part of the grievances. That discussion needs to be national and the fact it has not been engaged is due to the complete abridging of free speech. Complete enough (socially) to make such discussion untenable or unwelcome here. That discussion will occur if the constitution is to be preserved and government controlled by it is to be restored. It will very likely be an aspect of preparing for an Article V convention. I detail it here. articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-Amendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent
|
|
|
Post by tonydestefanis on Jun 16, 2012 9:41:38 GMT -5
My response would be that if 9/11 was somehow really an inside job then what good could asking for a government investigation do? If the government was so compromised that this could occur would there really be any possibility of an honest investigation? I am sure they would tie up their loose ends and anyone with any information would be sleeping with the fishes. Then again, what harm could an investigation cause. Since 9/11 the government has continued to erode our civil liberties and spend our money like a drunken sailor on leave all in the name of national security. Perhaps an investigation would encourage more transparancy and help to shake off the electorate's willingness to accept everything the government says without question, often in the name of patriotism. It is not unpatriotic to question the governments motives. History has shown that lies coverups and even murders have been perpetrated when we believed (or a small group believed) that such actions were in our national interest. I had no idea that this was a significant concern on behalf of many people. I don't think it warrants inclusion on the top grievances, but it could in some way be tied to seeking more transparancy in government especially in regard to our military actions and the money being spent on them.
|
|
|
Post by maureenmower on Jun 16, 2012 10:06:17 GMT -5
Didn't we already have a 9/11 Commission investigation? Needless to say, they found nothing, and a large part of that is that they didn't look - or couldn't look, in the name of national security.
But that's the point - even if we could appoint another investigative team, there's nothing forcing the government to turn over classified records, and Cheney had 7 years to make sure those records were purged before they left office anyway.
I'm afraid that the whole "9/11 truther" issue is going to go the way of the people who think Elivis is still alive somewhere. Those who buy into it will be classified as a bit nuts, and that's it. If there IS any truth to be found, no one in power is going to ever let us find it.
|
|
|
Post by christopherabrown on Jun 17, 2012 13:07:10 GMT -5
Didn't we already have a 9/11 Commission investigation? Needless to say, they found nothing, and a large part of that is that they didn't look - or couldn't look, in the name of national security. If you examine this page, you will see that they were set to ignore and be deprived of info needed to do the job. algoxy.com/conc/fema_deception.htmlGuiliani took the building plans so that NIST could conduct analysis without plans. The truth movement was created and led by the perpetrators using false social groups. See this video at 58 seconds for an idea of the legit official perceptions of the scope of 9-11. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDfm3NroVG8But that's the point - even if we could appoint another investigative team, there's nothing forcing the government to turn over classified records, and Cheney had 7 years to make sure those records were purged before they left office anyway. Correct, we need to change governments and get a constitutional one. I'm afraid that the whole "9/11 truther" issue is going to go the way of the people who think Elivis is still alive somewhere. A justified fear because without the truth of 9-11 we will never be safe, or free. Without the truth we will join Elvis after being slaves for a time. Those who buy into it will be classified as a bit nuts, and that's it. If there IS any truth to be found, no one in power is going to ever let us find it. That is why the truth movement was created by the perpetrators to use garbage information that would get them classified as you say. Such a position serves the perpetrators goals, they worked very hard to justify it with their creation and direction of the movement. It was an international effort. Note Niels Harrit of Belgum backed by the fake leaders jones and gage with juck science. Note j. wood with more of the same. Note that my site has the support of a Ph.D in physics and the only feasible, technically detailed explanation in existence is rejected by the public face of the 9-11 truth movement. Note that the largest most enabled group in the nation with jurisdiction had a lawyer writing a petition for a NYC ballot initiative that violated civil rights of witnesses and so was denied by a NYS judge. Note I explained this to the misleader of that group, NYCCAN. algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-nyccan.html I don't want to start a discussion on this subject, but have actual facts that have been duly submitted to the US district court disclosing my knowledge of treason. algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.disclosure.htmlThe entire 38 page filing under USC title 18 is on that page, but there are 2 other pages linked from it that detail my interaction with the courts who acted to further conceal treason in 2010.
|
|
|
Post by christopherabrown on Jun 17, 2012 13:11:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by davidindc on Jun 17, 2012 18:17:30 GMT -5
Elvis is dead?!
ARRRRGH.
OK, please stop shattering my illusions.
Not one word --- not one, I demand --- should appear in these fora about the existence of the tooth fairy, Santa, or PeeWee Herman's face etched onto the face of Mars.
I'm going to go off, meditate, and try to find my happy place.
|
|
|
Post by Frank Speaking on Jun 18, 2012 0:45:55 GMT -5
No David, Elivis is dead.
Christopher, sorry to say your strategy will not work for one really simple reason--as soon as you say "article V convention with fullest constitutional intent" you've lost 99% of the population. No one knows what preparatory amendments are. What they know is that politicians labor under a conflict of interest where they often have to decide between what is best for the people, and what is best for the people who give them the money to fund their campaigns. You have to explain it in a way that people can understand you. Right now, I don't entirely follow you, and I'm smarter than most people.
|
|
|
Post by indecankelly on Jun 18, 2012 16:02:04 GMT -5
Why would we want to use precious arguments to disclose conspiracy theories, when we can attack factual based grievances. Don't get me wrong, I love conspiracy theories, especially 9/11 and even JFK, but I think it's a bold tactic in the wrong direction. Let's focus on what most Americans can relate with, and not get distracted by glittery objects and entities that lurk in the shadows.
|
|
|
Post by davidindc on Jun 18, 2012 17:25:07 GMT -5
But Kennedy had a secretary named Mrs. Lincoln and Lincoln had a secretary name Mrs. Kennedy.
Coincidence? I think not!
|
|
|
Post by indecankelly on Jun 18, 2012 18:49:06 GMT -5
That's not entirely accurate, but good fun nonetheless. It's funny how the JFK conspiracy teetered on one critical issue, whether there was more than one gun man. And since they came up with the "magic bullet" argument, it aims to shut down the ideal of an obvious conspiracy to kill the POTUS and basically conduct a Coup d'état.
|
|
john
New Member
Texas-12
Posts: 39
|
Post by john on Jun 22, 2012 23:34:15 GMT -5
My recollections were that two planes captured by terrorists and after a lenghty flight, were aiming their people laden planes at buildings. We learned of this through cell phone conversations. One of those flying had enrolled in a school to fly a plane but didn't want to bother with learning how to land one. One of the planes dove into one of the twin towers. Flames and smoke were the instant result.
This deed alone was shocking. The USA president was reading to school children and rather dazed with the news but continued reading. Eventually the president was put aboard Air force II, the presidential plane, from where he could have contacted anyone even run a major war. But he did nothing. All day we got news of how the Vice President was running everything.
I am to believe that after the Twin Towers hit some conspiracy was quickly set in motion secretly to demolish the building. What sort of gain might have been the motive? Isn't crediting the government with such effective and logistical planning unreasonable? [It took the White House a long period of time to begin to deal with Katrina.]
Am I missing something?
Why would we want to involve ourselves with such a question when we might effect real consciousness raising and change about grievances that vitally touch our lives and the future of the nation?
The fact that the average person has lost about 40% of his wealth in a short time and that wealthy individuals are buying our legislators is far more important a concern.
|
|
|
Post by timothykprice on Jul 12, 2012 6:31:08 GMT -5
9/11 was a planned event by many people over a long time. The WTC we know had 3 buildings destroyed entirely by controlled demolitions. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. It is verifiable fact, shown over and over again in any piece of the evidence you want to discuss. 9/11 was a coup. The people who are steering the 99% Congress are either massively ignorant, or massively involved in continuing the coverup, or both. Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBwGrievance #88 should have the new investigation of 9/11 restored as it was before it was removed due to the efforts of people on the steering committee.
|
|
|
Post by timothykprice on Jul 12, 2012 6:38:50 GMT -5
It became an annoying reality to us that there were people behind the scenes directing this conversation about 9/11. Here it is, a frank admission by you that in your magnificent omniscience your decided to exclude the subject of 9/11 from being a grievance.
I hope that you get what you deserve.
|
|